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capyjack
No oil to the rocker shaftes


I am getting very little oil to the passenger side and none to the drivers side. I primed and primed, bumping the starter and spinning with the starter. I finally decided to fire the thing long enough to warm it up (7 or 8 minutes).
Still no oil. The plugs near the distributer gear are in place.
I hate to think that I am going to have to go back to the cam bearings.
Any other easy things that I could look For?
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on: Mon 29 of Dec, 2014 [17:17 UTC] reads: 19488

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dcrogers
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Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Tue 03 of Feb, 2015 [00:42 UTC] score: 0.00
> I am getting very little oil to the passenger side and none to the drivers side. I primed and primed, bumping the starter and spinning with the starter. I finally decided to fire the thing long enough to warm it up (7 or 8 minutes).
> Still no oil. The plugs near the distributer gear are in place.
> I hate to think that I am going to have to go back to the cam bearings.
> Any other easy things that I could look For?you could take plugs out on back of block and check oil passage , mine came back after being boiled or clean three times with sludge blocking one side completely, took a shotgun cleaner and ran thur to clean . Just something to look at

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Jack
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Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Mon 02 of Feb, 2015 [17:25 UTC] score: 0.00
SUCCESS !!!!
I was able to drill thru the cam bearing and solve this problem.
Thanks for all of the input here.

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capyjack
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Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Mon 05 of Jan, 2015 [07:41 UTC] score: 0.00
Next update,

I pulled the top end apart, intake, heads, lifters , cam etc.
I still cannot get the rod thru the oil hole.
I can see with the flashlight that there are no upper oil holes in the bearings where there should be. Although the lower holes are aligned and when I bumped the oil pump I get plenty of oil thru them.

It seems like I read somewhere that a groove in the bearing would make for better oiling to the top, but I may be confusing that with something else here.

I am tempted to run a drill bit down thru there from the top thru the cam bearing and be done with it.

What do you think about that?
A good sharp drill bit? I could make something to run down thru the cam bore to gather the shavings and maybe even try to figure a bit of emery on a stick to relieve the new holes a bit.

At least I wouldn't have to take the engine the rest of the way apart.



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George
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Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Mon 05 of Jan, 2015 [15:11 UTC] score: 0.00
> Next update,
>
> I pulled the top end apart, intake, heads, lifters , cam etc.
> I still cannot get the rod thru the oil hole.
> I can see with the flashlight that there are no upper oil holes in the bearings where there should be. Although the lower holes are aligned and when I bumped the oil pump I get plenty of oil thru them.
>
> It seems like I read somewhere that a groove in the bearing would make for better oiling to the top, but I may be confusing that with something else here.
>
> I am tempted to run a drill bit down thru there from the top thru the cam bearing and be done with it.
>
> What do you think about that?
> A good sharp drill bit? I could make something to run down thru the cam bore to gather the shavings and maybe even try to figure a bit of emery on a stick to relieve the new holes a bit.
>
> At least I wouldn't have to take the engine the rest of the way apart.
>
I guess that would be easier than complete dis-assembly & taking it came to the machine shop. But, then again, can you get adequate room to clean up w/o removing the crank & rods?

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capyjack
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Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Sun 04 of Jan, 2015 [17:25 UTC] score: 0.00
I guess I was thinking that if the tool was against the cam then I would eventually find the oil hole when I turned the engine slowly.
On the other hand if the tool was against the bearing (bearing not lined up with the hole) then I would not get any reaction from the tool. Which unfortunately is the case.
I thought about running the pump and turn the crank and I still may, I would think that if and when the holes lined up it would make for a pretty good 50 pound squirt.

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George
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Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Sun 04 of Jan, 2015 [18:48 UTC] score: 0.00
> I guess I was thinking that if the tool was against the cam then I would eventually find the oil hole when I turned the engine slowly.

That's functionally the same, don't know how precise the line up of the block & cam holes are, if spot on or variations in manufacturing allowances may have partially obstructed holes that may allow sufficient oil through, but what about a rod? hmmm

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capyjack
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Re: Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Sun 04 of Jan, 2015 [18:59 UTC] score: 0.00
Pretty much my thoughts,
The tool is only about 1/8 inch dia. I suppose you may be right in that the slight misalignment could cause the same results.
I will rig up the drill motor today and try turning the engine while pumping and get back to you with the results.

author message
capyjack
user offline
Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Sun 04 of Jan, 2015 [01:09 UTC] score: 0.00
NEXT STEP ??
I removed the rocker assy from one side. (the side that gets no oil)
Should I be able to use the welding rod trick from the top of the head to the cam bearing? Thru the small hole next to the indexing bushing on #2 stand and feel the cam?
I capped the head bolt path thru the stand and blew air thru the oil hole and all is clear in the shafts and related oil holes to the rockers.
If that is s straight shot thru to the cam bearing from the head side then it is indeed going to be a cam bearing problem as I cannot get the tool to feel the cam. But I don't know if it is a straight shot. I can feel the head gasket a little as it goes thru and the tool definitely bottoms on something a ways beyond that.
The best diagram I can find of this oiling system is in Tex Smiths book and it looks to be a straight path in that diagram.
Just wanting to test you experts here. I think I am cussing a machine shop right now.
I apologize for being a pest and thank you all for your help so far.

Happy and prosperous new year all.

author message
George
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Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Sun 04 of Jan, 2015 [15:23 UTC] score: 0.00
> NEXT STEP ??
> I removed the rocker assy from one side. (the side that gets no oil)
> Should I be able to use the welding rod trick from the top of the head to the cam bearing? Thru the small hole next to the indexing bushing on #2 stand and feel the cam?
> I capped the head bolt path thru the stand and blew air thru the oil hole and all is clear in the shafts and related oil holes to the rockers.
> If that is s straight shot thru to the cam bearing from the head side then it is indeed going to be a cam bearing problem as I cannot get the tool to feel the cam. But I don't know if it is a straight shot. I can feel the head gasket a little as it goes thru and the tool definitely bottoms on something a ways beyond that.
> The best diagram I can find of this oiling system is in Tex Smiths book and it looks to be a straight path in that diagram.
> Just wanting to test you experts here. I think I am cussing a machine shop right now.
> I apologize for being a pest and thank you all for your help so far.
>
> Happy and prosperous new year all.

That's the problem with trying this with the cam in place. There's only the thickness of the cam bearing as to weather your rod is touching the back of the bearing or the bearing surface of the cam. Either you have to pull the cam so you can look down the cam bore & see if the rod sticks into the bore or...easier to do... pull the int shaft, break out the drill motor again & turn the engine over with a breaking bar slowly. If the bearing is in right you'll get oil @ some point, or it's wrong & you won't.

As far as being a pest, that's why this section exisits!

author message
moa
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Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Wed 31 of Dec, 2014 [15:36 UTC] score: 0.00
When cleaning the shafts of sludge, did you also clean the number 2 rocker stand? The only way to accomplish this and to ensure that it is completely clean is to remove the locating dowel pressed into the bottom of the stand. The dowel not only locates the stand in the head but is also used as a diverter for oil to travel from shaft to shaft. Removed mine on a 392 and found one completely blocked, the other partially. Well worth the effort.

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capyjack
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Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Wed 31 of Dec, 2014 [16:57 UTC] score: 0.00
OK, I guess that I should take a look at the stand as MOA suggests.
My hopes were to be able to leave the heads on, but to check the stands in question that will not be possible.
It looks like taking the heads off will be the first thing, this way I can try the welding rod trick to check the cam bearings as well as go back into the stands. If I find trouble here I will not have to take the timing cover off at all (unless it is in fact the cam bearing).
I have assembled hundreds of engines and this is the first one that I have had any problems with. I guess ones number comes up eventually. Just my luck.
Thanks for the help all. I will post back here when I get it figured out, although I will probably be putting it off for a while.

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George
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Re: Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Wed 31 of Dec, 2014 [23:07 UTC] score: 0.00
> OK, I guess that I should take a look at the stand as MOA suggests.
> My hopes were to be able to leave the heads on, but to check the stands in question that will not be possible.
> It looks like taking the heads off will be the first thing, this way I can try the welding rod trick to check the cam bearings as well as go back into the stands.

It is possible to take off the rocker assembly w/o taking the heads off, just a matter of weather you want to risk a head gasket leak when your done.

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DaveBlakeman
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Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Tue 30 of Dec, 2014 [18:31 UTC] score: 0.00
If the caps were not removed from the rocker shafts and the sludge swept out with a stiff brush you may have clogged shafts. If you have ever cleaned these you know how much crud gets stuck in there. I bought a rebuild motor where the guy did not do that and I swapped out to clean shafts. Bob at Hot Heads sells the rocker shaft plugs to repolace those removed. That area traps alot of sludge.

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capyjack
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Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Tue 30 of Dec, 2014 [23:38 UTC] score: 0.00
I did in fact clean the sludge from the shafts, made sure that all of the holes are clear. I put new caps and pins etc.
I was careful to make sure everything was clean and that the stands with the oil passages were in the proper location. (all of the stands are in there correct locations).
That sludge in the shafts is nasty stuff. Gets all over everything and is hard to clean up.
The block was represented as ready to assemble, Probably my bad for not checking the cam bearings. I suspect that the oil passage from the head to the cam could be at fault as well.
I am afraid that I am going to have to tear back into this thing.
Darn !! It fired right up and ran well.

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George
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Re: Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Wed 31 of Dec, 2014 [00:29 UTC] score: 0.00
> I am afraid that I am going to have to tear back into this thing.

yeah, hate that feeling, sucks. Iguess you could take the rocker assembly off on that side & do the slow turn drill motor priming again to be sure there no oil @ any point. Then pull the cam, if not, & drop a rod down it.

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capyjack
user offline
Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Tue 30 of Dec, 2014 [17:07 UTC] score: 0.00
Let me clarify.
I was running the oil pump with the drill motor and running the starter at the same time.
This is a fresh 392.

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capyjack
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Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Tue 30 of Dec, 2014 [17:04 UTC] score: 0.00
Yes, a fresh rebuild.
I primed with a shaft that I made going straight to the oil pump with a drill motor.
I thought that by spinning the engine with the starter would mimic real conditions as I couldn't seem to find the sweet spot when the cam should come around to the oil holes when I was turning the crank by hand.
It has a chain and gears. Hydraulic lifters.
I still get very little oil on the passenger side and no oil on the drivers side even when I started the engine.
It holds 50 pounds of oil pressure. I don't want to run it any more until I get this problem dealt with.
I have to admit that I did not check the bearing alignment with a welding rod, I hadn't heard of that trick until after I found that I had a problem.
I just hate to pull the heads and waste the gaskets etc. I am thinking that I should be able to work a cam bearing without pulling the heads.
I guess I was just hoping that there might be something else that I have over looked.
I thank you all for the input here.

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George
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Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Tue 30 of Dec, 2014 [22:12 UTC] score: 0.00
>
> . I don't want to run it any more until I get this problem dealt with.
> I have to admit that I did not check the bearing alignment with a welding rod, I hadn't heard of that trick until after I found that I had a problem.
> I just hate to pull the heads and waste the gaskets etc. I am thinking that I should be able to work a cam bearing without pulling the heads.


Yeah, you don't want to gall the shafts if there is no oiling. You can acsess the hole by removing the rocker assembly, though there is a risk of breaking the head seal where it's held down by the head bolts. breaking the seal might not hurt where you have only a few minutes run time unless you used sealer. If the shafts weren't cleaned out that would provide an opportunity, @ least on that side.

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33Willys
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Re: Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Tue 30 of Dec, 2014 [20:03 UTC] score: 0.00
If the rocker assemblies were taken apart and cleaned (as they should be on a rebuild), did you make sure the stands were put back in the right place? If they are out of order, you will not have oil up there. One of those sends oil up to the shafts.

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ewoky409
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Re: No oil to the rocker shaftes
on: Tue 30 of Dec, 2014 [07:23 UTC] score: 0.00
> I am getting very little oil to the passenger side and none to the drivers side. I primed and primed, bumping the starter and spinning with the starter. I finally decided to fire the thing long enough to warm it up (7 or 8 minutes).
> Still no oil. The plugs near the distributer gear are in place.
> I hate to think that I am going to have to go back to the cam bearings.
> Any other easy things that I could look For?

From the looks of it,if it is a new rebuild you might have left out the oil bypass valve.



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