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dutch
56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?


TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH A 56 POLY (3) 315 ENGINE.

Hello,
>
> w have a dodge 56 with a poly(3) 315 engine.
> chassis nr35029286 engine nr633/38743
>
> Around 1990 the engine began to give some realy bad noises.
>
> The engine has been restored by a "profecial" mechanic.
> New pistons, bearings, valves, springs, oilpump etc.
> Wrong move ............
>
> After te engine has been restorated it has never run correctly.
> After collecting the engine some old parts have been given back but a lot of parts wend missing.
>
> The Problem:
>
> After cleaning the hydrolic lifters it starts ok with a lot off nois from the hydrolic lifters.
> After 10 - 30 seconds the noise is gone and the problems start.
> After 1 or 2 minutes it runs only on 2 or 3 cylinders.
>
>
> Does anny one have some experience with this kind off problems.
> We bought, and put in, new hydrolic lifters but no difference.
> We allso bought new set off valve springs but no difference.
>
> Is it a lifter problem, a camshaft problem or a oil presure problem witch is high?
> My brother in law thinks it is the wrong camshaft.
> I belive it has to do with the high oil presure witch keep filling the hydrolic lifters.
> Or the length off the valves in combination with the hydeolic lifters.
>
>
> All suggestions are wellcome.
>
> It is not a hemmi but a POLY (3) 315 engine.
>
> Greatings from holland
> jakob.oud@zonnet.nl
>
>
>
>

  user offline
on: Sat 27 of Dec, 2008 [15:18 UTC] reads: 6238

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author message
George
user offline
Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Mon 29 of Dec, 2008 [01:28 UTC] score: 0.00
> TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH A 56 POLY (3) 315 ENGINE.
>
> Hello,
> >
> > w have a dodge 56 with a poly(3) 315 engine.

> >
> Another thing you might try is www.forwardlook.net It's for 55-61 Mopars. Post in the Forum there. There are European members, Dutch too. Maybe they can figure out what you are describing, or maybe close enough to come & give you a hand.

author message
mad~max
user offline
Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sun 28 of Dec, 2008 [02:08 UTC] score: 0.00
Here's what I would do:

Pull the engine. Completely disassemble it into plastic containers, marking everything as you go.

After tearing down the block and heads, have them sent out to be cleaned.

Throw away the pushrods and harmonic balancer. Get some new adjustable ones from Hot Heads, and get a harmonic balancer as well.

Throw away all the bearings, and buy new ones after you get the rods and crank checked. Balance the whole deal when you get the pistons cleaned. Balance it using the flywheel/flex plate, and balancer.

Throw away the rings and have the block checked for bore and hone.

Throw away the carb and fuel filter. Buy new ones that are clean externally and internally. Get rid of the gas tank if you can afford it.

Get a Pertronix distributor and an MSD box. Forget the ballast resistor bo-jive, just use the MSD to fire the coil. Put new plugs and new wires in.

That's about half of what I'd do. Either that or get a nice 350/350 from the junk yard.


author message
George
user offline
Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sun 28 of Dec, 2008 [20:45 UTC] score: 0.00
> Here's what I would do:
>
> Pull the engine. Completely disassemble it into plastic containers, marking everything as you go.
>
> After tearing down the block and heads, have them sent out to be cleaned.
>
> Throw away the pushrods and harmonic balancer. Get some new adjustable ones from Hot Heads, and get a harmonic balancer as well.
>
> Throw away all the bearings, and buy new ones after you get the rods and crank checked. Balance the whole deal when you get the pistons cleaned. Balance it using the flywheel/flex plate, and balancer.
>
> Throw away the rings and have the block checked for bore and hone.
>
> Throw away the carb and fuel filter. Buy new ones that are clean externally and internally. Get rid of the gas tank if you can afford it.
>
> Get a Pertronix distributor and an MSD box. Forget the ballast resistor bo-jive, just use the MSD to fire the coil. Put new plugs and new wires in.
>
> That's about half of what I'd do. Either that or get a nice 350/350 from the junk yard.
>
Tearing it down for inspection might be a good idea, but I'd plasti-gage the bearings, if they look good, rather than just tossing them. Be good to check the cam & valve stem lengths if any valves were changed. Still not following what he's saying about the lifters.

author message
51Coupe
user offline
Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Mon 29 of Dec, 2008 [12:46 UTC] score: 0.00
> > Still not following what he's saying about the lifters.

George, If the cam lobes were badly worn (or the wrong cam) the lifters might not reach the top of the lifter bores alowing the oil to puddle on top of the lifters! I'm thinking this is what he means by filling up.

author message
George
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Mon 29 of Dec, 2008 [13:51 UTC] score: 0.00
> > > Still not following what he's saying about the lifters.
>
> George, If the cam lobes were badly worn (or the wrong cam) the lifters might not reach the top of the lifter bores alowing the oil to puddle on top of the lifters! I'm thinking this is what he means by filling up.

Yeah, could be. If this happened once, & didn't run right again, I'd say he's wiped the cam out. If the engine has done it a number of times, runs normaly for a short period & then starts losing cylenders, there isn't a logical explanation. Probably needs to contact Chris Nielson & get a new cam & lifter set. Here in the US ZDDP(zinc) has been removed from car oil & reduced to an extent in diesel oil. It's important in engines that don't have roller cams. He needs to look into the zinc situation of his oil.

author message
dutch
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Mon 29 of Dec, 2008 [20:02 UTC] score: 0.00
>Yeah, could be. If this happened once, & didn't run right again, I'd >say he's wiped the cam out. If the engine has done it a number of >times, runs normaly for a short period & then starts losing cylenders, >there isn't a logical explanation. Probably needs to contact Chris
>Nielson & get a new cam & lifter set. Here in the US ZDDP(zinc) has >been removed from car oil & reduced to an extent in diesel oil. It's >important in engines that don't have roller cams. He needs to look >into the zinc situation of his oil.

Hello george like you say an non explanation problem.
All the parts look ok but they do not work together.
Some off the lifters keep filling until the valves are open all the time.

We do not have the old camshaft we do not know if it has been exchanged. There are bought new lifters and valve springs again.
But after replacement no change.
All the valves have been replacesd.
Ther could be a problem in the total lenght off the sistem witch coursed this problem.
The engine will be taken apart at the end off january.
I just started this series off questions to gain more nollidge before taking it apart.
Specialy for where we could get the parts we need.

>George, If the cam lobes were badly worn (or the wrong cam) the
>lifters might not reach the top of the lifter bores alowing the oil to
>puddle on top of the lifters! I'm thinking this is what he means by
>filling up.

Does the engine block have in the hole where the lifters are sitting
2 drilled holes. One for filling and one slightly higher for loosing the oil "to puddel up the top off the lifters"????

Do i read this right/correcly







author message
George
user offline
Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Tue 30 of Dec, 2008 [13:14 UTC] score: 0.00
>
>
>
> Some off the lifters keep filling until the valves are open all the time.
>
> We do not have the old camshaft we do not know if it has been exchanged. There are bought new lifters and valve springs again.
> But after replacement no change.
> All the valves have been replacesd.
> Ther could be a problem in the total lenght off the sistem witch coursed this problem.
>
If the valves stay open when fully pumped up, something is too long. Valve stems, push rods, possibly a misground cam. Don't know as much about the Ploys as the Hemis, but i seem to remember that the Poly push rods are shorter than the hemi ones. If true, & they were replaced, you might have the wrong ones. Hopefully someone can post lenths.

author message
51Coupe
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Mon 29 of Dec, 2008 [21:27 UTC] score: 0.00
>
> All the parts look ok but they do not work together.
> Some off the lifters keep filling until the valves are open all the time.
> All the valves have been replacesd.
> Ther could be a problem in the total lenght off the sistem witch coursed this problem.

When you replaced the valve springs did you check the installed height? What type of pushrods ?If they're adjustable you'll have to readjust them(shorter). If they're nonadjustable you'll have to replace them with adjustable ones!
>
> Does the engine block have in the hole where the lifters are sitting
> 2 drilled holes. One for filling and one slightly higher for loosing the oil "to puddel up the top off the lifters"????

The 2 holes should be inline. The second hole is to feed the next lifter.

author message
dutch
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Wed 31 of Dec, 2008 [09:21 UTC] score: 0.00
Just a few pictures to look at.

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showgallery.php?cat=1902

Does anny one have drawings or pictures off the hydolic system off the lifters?

>George, If the cam lobes were badly worn (or the wrong cam) the
>lifters might not reach the top of the lifter bores alowing the oil to
>puddle on top of the lifters! I'm thinking this is what he means by
>filling up.

"alowing the oil to"puddle on top of the lifters!"

Could some one tell us how this exactly works?
This might be part off the troble.
Oil channels blocked or/and the engine not cleaned correctly from the inside specialy the oil channels??


author message
51Coupe
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Wed 31 of Dec, 2008 [13:52 UTC] score: 0.00
Dutch:

Great looking 56-I LOVE IT! If the lifters are filling with oil,that's not the problem(that's a good thing) Your problem is with the pushrods! They're too long! The wrong ones,this is why your valves are staying open!

author message
51Coupe
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Wed 31 of Dec, 2008 [20:09 UTC] score: 0.00
> Dutch:
Ok! I was thinking if your valve stems were too long you would have noticed this when you installed new springs! Or they would have come apart by now! Anyhow i checked with Egge Machine Co.(egge.com). They list all the correct parts needed for your 315 poly. Lifters,valves,springs and pushrods! All different from the Hemies!
Hope this helps and Good Luck! GREAT looking '56 Dodge! Best of luck with it in the NEW YEAR! KB

author message
dutch
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Thu 01 of Jan, 2009 [21:39 UTC] score: 0.00
Hello 51 coupe,
First to al a happy new year.

I have not done this engine. It has been done at a profecoinal mechanic who say's he has a lot off experience with this kind off engines back around 1990.
I put this whole question on this forum to gain more information.\
And it has sucseeded.

1 if the engine and the heads have been chaved the total valve lengh should be shorter as before.
2 We do not know if its the cam or a differend cam. Does a cam have an number on it?
3 We can not find out who manufactured the lifters and the new bought lifters and springs.
4 The puch rods are te same.

Thanks for info about egge.com. Ill sort it out tomorro.
Have a look/serge on the internet.

Could you tel me what they meen "to puddel up the top off the lifters"????




author message
51Coupe
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Fri 02 of Jan, 2009 [16:03 UTC] score: 0.00
Hello Dutch:
If the heads were shaved,that wouldn't change the length of the valves. When they shave them,they take very little off, just enough to straighten them. If the take alot off(say .030 to .060 in.) you would need shorter push rods.
I suggest you post your questions on the H.A.M.B website! Several people there have done recent rebuilds on these engines! They should be able to help you!
A puddle is a small pool of water or in this case oil.

author message
George
user offline
Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sat 27 of Dec, 2008 [21:25 UTC] score: 0.00
> TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH A 56 POLY (3) 315 ENGINE.
>
> Hello,
> >
> > w have a dodge 56 with a poly(3) 315 engine.
> > chassis nr35029286 engine nr633/38743
> >
> > Around 1990 the engine began to give some realy bad noises.
> >
> > The engine has been restored by a "profecial" mechanic.
> > New pistons, bearings, valves, springs, oilpump etc.
> > Wrong move ............
> >
> > After te engine has been restorated it has never run correctly.
> > After collecting the engine some old parts have been given back but a lot of parts wend missing.
> >
> > The Problem:
> >
> > After cleaning the hydrolic lifters it starts ok with a lot off nois from the hydrolic lifters.
> > After 10 - 30 seconds the noise is gone and the problems start.
> > After 1 or 2 minutes it runs only on 2 or 3 cylinders.
> >
> >
> > Does anny one have some experience with this kind off problems.
> > We bought, and put in, new hydrolic lifters but no difference.
> > We allso bought new set off valve springs but no difference.
> >
> > Is it a lifter problem, a camshaft problem or a oil presure problem witch is high?
> > My brother in law thinks it is the wrong camshaft.
> > I belive it has to do with the high oil presure witch keep filling the hydrolic lifters.
> > Or the length off the valves in combination with the hydeolic lifters.
> >
> >
> > All suggestions are wellcome.
> >
> > It is not a hemmi but a POLY (3) 315 engine.
> >
> > Greatings from holland
> > jakob.oud@zonnet.nl

Hey! Wait a minute! What do you mean "cleaning the lifters"? When starting up a new rebuild, or one that has been sitting for quite a while, you need break in lube on the cam lobes & bottom of the lifters, & the lifters well oiled. If not well lubed, you may have wiped out some cam lobes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

author message
dutch
user offline
Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sat 27 of Dec, 2008 [22:56 UTC] score: 0.00
> > TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH A 56 POLY (3) 315 ENGINE.

Hey! Wait a minute! What do you mean "cleaning the lifters"? When starting up a new rebuild, or one that has been sitting for quite a while, you need break in lube on the cam lobes & bottom of the lifters, & the lifters well oiled. If not well lubed, you may have wiped out some cam lobes.

Hello, this car has not propperly running sinds 1990.
It only has been in and out off the shed.

If we take oll the lifters out again and cleanthem all.
Lubricate and oil them put them in.
It's still the same. the lifters keep filling up.

author message
George
user offline
Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sat 27 of Dec, 2008 [23:39 UTC] score: 0.00
> > > TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH A 56 POLY (3) 315 ENGINE.
>
> Hey! Wait a minute! What do you mean "cleaning the lifters"? When starting up a new rebuild, or one that has been sitting for quite a while, you need break in lube on the cam lobes & bottom of the lifters, & the lifters well oiled. If not well lubed, you may have wiped out some cam lobes.
>
> Hello, this car has not propperly running sinds 1990.
> It only has been in and out off the shed.
>
> If we take oll the lifters out again and cleanthem all.
> Lubricate and oil them put them in.
> It's still the same. the lifters keep filling up.

Not sure I'm following you on "filling up". As you run the oil pump the lifters should pump up & push on the push rods. Are you saying they are leaking instead of pumping up? If long or short valve stems were used you would have to use adjustable push rods or rocker arms, don't know if any available.

author message
dutch
user offline
Re: Re: Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sun 28 of Dec, 2008 [00:04 UTC] score: 0.00
Not sure I'm following you on "filling up". As you run the oil pump the lifters should pump up & push on the push rods. Are you saying they are leaking instead of pumping up? If long or short valve stems were used you would have to use adjustable push rods or rocker arms, don't know if any available.

A D500 from 57 could have hydrolic or mechanic adjustible lifters and they do fit.
This car has a 56 poly 315 (0633 # 38743) engine

I mean if the lifters are emty after cleaning again.
Put some oil in and asseble them all and put them in the engine.
After starting the engine you hear noise off the lifters, puchrods, valves etc.
The oil pump fils up the hydrolic lifters.
The noise is going down.
But some lifters are keeping filling up. They over fill.
Then the engine runs on less cylinders.

Camshaft, lifters, springs, oilpresure, difference in total length off the lifters puch rods valves?
Whitch off them is the one creating the problem?

Sorry for my bad english writing becourse i'm dutch and living in Holland europe. Its not my first language.


author message
George
user offline
Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sat 27 of Dec, 2008 [21:20 UTC] score: 0.00
> TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH A 56 POLY (3) 315 ENGINE.
>
> Hello,
> >
> > w have a dodge 56 with a poly(3) 315 engine.
> > chassis nr35029286 engine nr633/38743
> >
> > Around 1990 the engine began to give some realy bad noises.
> >
> > The engine has been restored by a "profecial" mechanic.
> > New pistons, bearings, valves, springs, oilpump etc.
> > Wrong move ............
> >
> > After te engine has been restorated it has never run correctly.
> > After collecting the engine some old parts have been given back but a lot of parts wend missing.
> >
> > The Problem:
> >
> > After cleaning the hydrolic lifters it starts ok with a lot off nois from the hydrolic lifters.
> > After 10 - 30 seconds the noise is gone and the problems start.
> > After 1 or 2 minutes it runs only on 2 or 3 cylinders.
> >
> >
> > Does anny one have some experience with this kind off problems.
> > We bought, and put in, new hydrolic lifters but no difference.
> > We allso bought new set off valve springs but no difference.
> >
> > Is it a lifter problem, a camshaft problem or a oil presure problem witch is high?
> > My brother in law thinks it is the wrong camshaft.
> > I belive it has to do with the high oil presure witch keep filling the hydrolic lifters.
> > Or the length off the valves in combination with the hydeolic lifters.
> >
> >
> > All suggestions are wellcome.
> >
> > It is not a hemmi but a POLY (3) 315 engine.
> >
> > Greatings from holland
> > jakob.oud@zonnet.nl

This problem as been going on since 1990?eekWouldn't think it'd be an oil pump problem. The Hemi & Poly cams interchange, though there might be a slight grind difference for peak efficientcy between the 2 engines. All high deck Dodge, DeSoto & Chrs use the same lifters. the early 361/413 lifters work, as well as LA 318s, apparently. While different, Doc Fromader shows using 318 roller lifters & a Dodge 315/325 Hemi roller cam in a 315 on www.webrodder.com Look for the 315 Hemi build. Probably wrong cam, maybe a low deck 241/270 cam? Don't know if it is physicaly possible for someone to have put a 318 Poly cam in a 315 Dodge Poly.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

author message
dutch
user offline
Re: Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sat 27 of Dec, 2008 [23:05 UTC] score: 0.00
This problem as been going on since 1990?eekWouldn't think it'd be an oil pump problem. The Hemi & Poly cams interchange, though there might be a slight grind difference for peak efficientcy between the 2 engines. All high deck Dodge, DeSoto & Chrs use the same lifters. the early 361/413 lifters work, as well as LA 318s, apparently. While different, Doc Fromader shows using 318 roller lifters & a Dodge 315/325 Hemi roller cam in a 315 on www.webrodder.com Look for the 315 Hemi build. Probably wrong cam, maybe a low deck 241/270 cam? Don't know if it is physicaly possible for someone to have put a 318 Poly cam in a 315 Dodge Poly.



Hello, the car has been standing in the shed for the most time.
Family house new shed they all come first.
I just started to get more information about this problem.
The car has a new oil pump. It might be a wrong camshaft.
We do not know. After restoration a frend helped with getting a set of new lifers and valve springs.

A other problem could be a problem with the length off the valves related to the main casting and the heads.
Iff they are totaly longer or shorter then the specification could that be the main problem?





author message
JACKM
user offline
Re: 56 poly (3) 315 engine problems?
on: Sat 27 of Dec, 2008 [16:46 UTC] score: 0.00
Arent the early polys solid lifter engines?


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